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Cart Before the Horse:
02.22.05 (10:55 am)   [edit]

The “traditional definition of marriage” is really no definition at all, but is rather a clause stipulating who can entry into such a “union”. Marriage is defined by the rights and obligations that constitute such a union and as such the definition of marriage has changed constantly over the years. Man, I am glad I got that off my chest.

As for the clause itself, it too has changed over the years; it has become both more restrictive and boarder. The ability to marry a close relative is not what it used to be. Conversely, until relatively recently, at least with regards to the States, race was a limiting factor. (I should say that limiting marriage to one man and one woman is only traditional in Western sense; there are other traditions.)

The argument that same sex marriage is some sort of Pandora’s Box that if opened will lead to polygamy and worse puts the chart before the proverbial horse. The notion of same sex marriage is the natural outflow of societal struggle that intellectually speaking has already been won, viz., the normalization of homosexuality. If you look at the court decisions, it is this that forms the backdrop for their decisions. In this sense it is akin to what happened with interracial marriage in the States. Once the notion of the equality of races won out intellectually, it was just a matter of squaring this idea with the current “definition” of marriage and letting people of different races to marry.

With regards to polygamy, there is no such process by which legalizing it will square the legal system with greater societal norms. Indeed, opposition to polygamy seems to have found its voice by having people articulate and disseminate word of the horrors of the Bountiful experience.  In so far as this new found interest in horrors of Bountiful is a byproduct of the whole gay marriage debate, one could ironically say that gay marriage has made the polygamy less likely and not more.    

 


posted by: newbie (reply)
post date: 02.22.05 (1:25 pm)

By the way, I have no problem conceiving of a loving three person union; in other words, I am not in principle opposed. However, there are other things to consider. I think the Bountiful case shows that at this historical juncture, legalizing polygamy could have some negative consequences. In some respects, but not all, the situation is akin to the debate surrounding the age of consent in BC. It is easy to conceive of 15 year old being able to have a healthy relationship with 28 year old (e.g, as in Annaud’s the Lover). However, the law is a blunt object and the ability of such 15 year olds to carry on such relationships must be weighed against what it will mean for others of like age if they are so allowed. The same goes for ability of someone to legally take on two mates are once.



posted by: newbie (reply)
post date: 02.22.05 (9:36 pm)

Reply to: newbie
"Polygamy has practiced much more widely than SSM"
Polygamy has been practiced more widely than SSM, but so what. "Marriages of children and coercive (arranged) marriages are not exclusively features of polygamy." Agreed, I hope Canada does what Germany plans to do, viz., whenever one party objects and has proof that the marriage was arranged declare it null and void.

"what's the purpose of marriage again?"

Don, marriage has no one purpose. People entry into such a union for a whole host of reasons. Why a government does so, various from country to country and over time.




posted by: newbie (reply)
post date: 02.23.05 (9:34 pm)

"A slippery slope fallacy exists only when there is absence of an argument to show how "B" follows from "A". I have realized that all of the arguments (advanced here and elsewhere) in favour of SSM ("A") also apply to polygamous arrangements ("B"), so there is no slippery slope. There is merely an obvious deduction."

The whole debate must have passed you by. The SSM marriage debate has focused not only on the normality of the gay individual, but also on the consequences of legalizing such unions would have on society. Case in point is Harper in today’s Vancouver Sun. If you believe him, if we do not semantically separate gay marriages from straight ones, Canadian society is, for reasons not given, doomed. Only you and Don seemed to be impressed by such Chicken Little claims.

I have in turn offered a few of my own. I few months back I said this on this site. “There are plenty of reasons for wanting gay marriage. One that seems locked in the closet is that it will help normalize homosexual relationships. This will likely help reduce appalling afflictions that plague gay youth (e.g., monstrously high suicide rates, drug abuse).”

What little discussion there has been on the potential effects of legalizing polygamy has had, surprise, an entirely different focus. Most of its stems from the fact that the post-modern polygamy described by Jay is the exception and not the rule and in practice polygamy can not be separated out from patriarchal norms that Western society finds unpalatable. Those who argue against its legalization feel that Trojan horse of post modern polygamy will lead to some women having to live according to such norms. Bountiful is discussed in this context.




posted by: newbie (reply)
post date: 02.28.05 (6:09 pm)

Will allowing polygamy bring Canadian society to its knees? No of course not. It will just make lives of women from certain segments of society worse. Polygamy is praticed only in only two parts of North America, Bountiful and Col. City. In both cases, the number of abuse cases is staggering. These findings are consistent with what the UN has said on the subject. The United Nations has condemned the practice of polygamy on the grounds that it is detrimental to women.

Just as an aside, the whole issue has more in common with the issue of sharia law in Canada, the fight aganist arranged marriage in Germany and France's ban of the headscarf than with the issue of gay marriage. Indeed, the issue in all cases is whether women have the power to fight against the tide of tradition and religion on their own. Far from being, just more examples of state paternalism, such campaigns and laws have popular support among those that they are designed to protect, viz., women from various minority groupings.


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