| Kerry's Iraq Vote: Pure Spin |
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posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 09.09.04 (11:07 am) The problem is that Bush never bothered to come up with a working exit strategy or how a country living in the 12th Century is suddenly going to embrace a 21st Century democracy. In order to have a working government you need the people behind you. If the people of a nation are not willing to make the sacrifice it takes to have a revolution, they will not be willing to make the even greater sacrifices it takes to keep a free government going. (for evidence see India, Africa, etc) We should have let the Iraqis deal with it. posted by: stepdad (reply) post date: 09.09.04 (11:46 am) Reply to: therealspartacus007 Ok.. so what's our "exit strategy" for Bosnia exactly? Pretty easy to be an armchair quaterback, bit harder to be the guy that gets hit when you call the wrong play. Let me clue you in on something a former NCO once told me many years ago, "No plan ever survives contact with the enemy". No plan. No exceptions. You can't have an exit strategy in place until you know what your up against and what you have to work with, intel information that would be totally unavailable until after the war was over and you could start taking accurate stock of the situation. No one could have proposed a valid exit strategy for Iraq prior to that, and to say otherwise is simply ridiculous. posted by: flipsidedown (reply) post date: 09.09.04 (12:15 pm) Kerry was worried about you and me, the taxpayer, along with the Soldiers. ANd this is what we get: BUSH TURNED RECORD SURPLUSES INTO RECORD DEFICITS, PLANS WILL COST $6 TRILLION. When Bush took office, there was a $5.6 trillion surplus over ten years. Now, this year alone CBO is expecting a $422 billion deficit. That is more than $800 billion worse than was projected for this year (CBO Mid-session 2004). George Bush’s proposals – both passed and proposed – would increase the deficit by more than $6 trillion over ten years. George Bush’s plan leaves out trillions of dollars of his proposals – including Iraq, Social Security individual accounts, and the likely cost of his proposed mission to Mars. posted by: therealspartacus007 (reply) post date: 09.09.04 (3:09 pm) Reply to: stepdad "Ok.. so what's our "exit strategy" for Bosnia exactly?" We don't have one. That is one of the many many reasons I have opposed the US presence in the Balkans from Day One. "Pretty easy to be an armchair quaterback, bit harder to be the guy that gets hit when you call the wrong play." What's your point? I never said I could be president. All I said is that Bush made mistakes. There's nothing unreasonable about that. "Let me clue you in on something a former NCO once told me many years ago, "No plan ever survives contact with the enemy"." I'm not saying you have to have everything mapped out neat and tidy. But you have to look ahead and figure out at what point we can secure the nation and withdraw our troops. If we're going to use a football analogy, I'm critcizing the quarterback and the offensive coaches for not bothering to review game film and come up with a plan for the day's matchup. "No plan. No exceptions. You can't have an exit strategy in place until you know what your up against and what you have to work with, intel information that would be totally unavailable until after the war was over and you could start taking accurate stock of the situation." Um, espionage has been a documented part of warfare since the Jews invaded the land of milk and honey. I don't think a general plan is too much to ask, lol! We had one going in- the "Shock and Awe," which I thought was a good idea. Both Bush and I miscalculated on that one. But the goal was always 'disarm Saddam,' and there wasn't enough discussion about how to form a new government. This lack of foresight led to mistakes such as the disbanding of the Iraqi army, that could have been a powerful ally against the insurgents. "No one could have proposed a valid exit strategy for Iraq prior to that, and to say otherwise is simply ridiculous." Huh, thats really interesting. We had one for Germany and Japan. Exit strategies have often been the make or break point for military campaigns. Napoleon's empire was based around a complex network of exit strategies. His exit strategy didn't work in Russia, and that was part of his undoing. Look, even Bush admits he miscalculated. That's perfectly forgivable. posted by: koby (reply) post date: 09.09.04 (5:32 pm) Reply to: flipsidedown please read my other posts before you pass judgment. You will get a better idea of were I stand vis-via Bush. posted by: stepdad (reply) post date: 09.10.04 (5:35 am) "I'm not saying you have to have everything mapped out neat and tidy. But you have to look ahead and figure out at what point we can secure the nation and withdraw our troops. " Sorry, but what your asking here is simply impossible. Entirely too many variables involved. "Um, espionage has been a documented part of warfare since the Jews invaded the land of milk and honey. I don't think a general plan is too much to ask, lol! " A general plan is fine, but no plan is going to go exactly as you intend and there simply is no way to predict all of the possible outcomes before one even begins an operation. Even the best espionage in the world couldn't tell you prior to the Iraq war what would be happening now. As I said, entirely too many variables involved. "Huh, thats really interesting. We had one for Germany and Japan. " We had them after the fact, not before. You might also wish to note that we spent a great deal longer in both Germany and Japan than we have currently been in Iraq. posted by: koby (reply) post date: 09.10.04 (10:50 pm) Reply to: therealspartacus007 “The problem is that Bush never bothered to come up with a working exit strategy or how a country living in the 12th Century is suddenly going to embrace a 21st Century democracy.” The goal was never to embrace Western Style Democracy. That was a pipe dream circulated in the press. The goal was to turn the rest of Iraq into something like Kurdistan. This is, was, an achievable goal. “In order to have a working government you need the people behind you. If the people of a nation are not willing to make the sacrifice it takes to have a revolution, they will not be willing to make the even greater sacrifices it takes to keep a free government going.” It was never a matter of having the Iraqis just suck it up. The problem with Iraq as opposed to Kurdistan is there was no opposition groups, at least none the States liked, who could step into the reins of power. Pentagon had thought they could build such a group (INC) and have it step in, but the group did not have any sort of legitimacy. What the States should have done right of the bat in the Shia areas, and this is some sort of consensus emerging around this, was they should have handed over control at the municipal early on. This is what the British wanted and this is also what the some local commanders wanted. If memory serves me right, the commander in Nassriyah was pushing for local elections. |
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