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| Sexual Orientation not Chosen |
| 07.02.08 (1:39 pm) [edit] |
|
One does not choose to desire anything; thinking otherwise is what Ryle called a category mistake. I do not choose to desire a glass of water; I just desire one. The same goes for belief. I can no more choose to believe in God than I can choose to believe that there is a computer screen in front of me. That being the case, it matters not a lick whether one’s sexuality is biologically based or otherwise. What really seems to be at the heart of dispute is whether one’s sexual orientation can change. Available evidence, especially with regard to males, is it can not be changed. Orientation seems to be far less varied than behavior. (Women who identify as bisexual respond to erotica of all sorts; their bisexual male counterparts on the other hand only respond to one or the other.) This has led those opposed to fundamentalists to claim victory. Both sides are guilty of confused thinking though. Just because sexual orientation can not be changed does not mean that this settles the issue. Pedophilia also seems to be immutable, but that does not make diddling kids morally permissible. Homosexual behavior is morally permissible because there is no harm in two consenting adults of the same sex engaging in sexual behavior and with regard to morality no harm no foul. |
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (2:18 pm)
"What really seems to be at the heart of dispute is whether one’s sexual orientation can change. Available evidence, especially with regard to males, is it can not be changed."
Says who..........the APA??? Where in the late 70's Dr. Silverstein successfully removed homosexuality as being a disorder. This is the fellow who went on to write about "the joys of male fisting", hardly an unbiased character in the matter. It's unfortunate that the APA left the realm of science, and decided to become a political front for the militant gay agenda.
Does an overbearing mother, a disconnected father, and an aloof or artistic male child have anything to do with the equation? Do overtly abusive fathers have anything to do with lesbianism, in the perception of a weak female, and a desire to be disconnected from the male on accounts of his power and abusive nature. No one will address how the "wiring" got screwed up from childhood. No we have a whole new equation added to the mess of dysfunctional families, popular culture, “lets have question your sexuality exercise, put away your crayons kids”.
Pedophillia has a HUGE relationship to prognography, would any one address that?
Change is possible, if people wouldn't be so phucking politically correct about the topic, and let some real science be the judge.
There are psychologists treating homosexual males and females (notice how I didn't say gay, these homosexuals want nothing to do with the militant political gay movement, they know that their wiring is crossed, and are seeking help.) Not all patients get treated of course, but there have been many successful treatments that should not be ignored.
Too bad in Kanada a doctor would probably get shot at, or worse, taken to some HRC "hearing", which is hardly a hearing, they don't "hear" anything; they already have their minds made up on most of the maters. Professional $hit disturbers.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (2:36 pm)
"What really seems to be at the heart of dispute is whether one’s sexual orientation can change. Available evidence, especially with regard to males, is it can not be changed."
Says who..........the APA??? Where in the late 70's Dr. Silverstein successfully removed homosexuality as being a disorder. This is the fellow who went on to write about "the joys of male fisting", hardly an unbiased character in the matter. It's unfortunate that the APA left the realm of science, and decided to become a political front for the militant gay agenda.
Does an overbearing mother, a disconnected father, and an aloof or artistic male child have anything to do with the equation? Do overtly abusive fathers have anything to do with lesbianism, in the perception of a weak female, and a desire to be disconnected from the male on accounts of his power and abusive nature. No one will address how the "wiring" got screwed up from childhood. No we have a whole new equation added to the mess of dysfunctional families, popular culture, “lets have question your sexuality exercise, put away your crayons kids”.
Pedophillia has a HUGE relationship to prognography, would any one address that?
Change is possible, if people wouldn't be so phucking politically correct about the topic, and let some real science be the judge.
There are psychologists treating homosexual males and females (notice how I didn't say gay, these homosexuals want nothing to do with the militant political gay movement, they know that their wiring is crossed, and are seeking help.) Not all patients get treated of course, but there have been many successful treatments that should not be ignored.
Too bad in Kanada a doctor would probably get shot at, or worse, taken to some HRC "hearing", which is hardly a hearing, they don't "hear" anything; they already have their minds made up on most of the maters. Professional $hit disturbers.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (2:50 pm)
"What really seems to be at the heart of dispute is whether one’s sexual orientation can change. Available evidence, especially with regard to males, is it can not be changed."
Says who..........the APA??? Where in the late 70's Dr. Silverstein successfully removed homosexuality as being a disorder. This is the fellow who went on to write about "the joys of male fisting", hardly an unbiased character in the matter. It's unfortunate that the APA left the realm of science, and decided to become a political front for the militant gay agenda.
Does an overbearing mother, a disconnected father, and an aloof or artistic male child have anything to do with the equation? Do overtly abusive fathers have anything to do with lesbianism, in the perception of a weak female, and a desire to be disconnected from the male on accounts of his power and abusive nature. No one will address how the "wiring" got screwed up from childhood. No we have a whole new equation added to the mess of dysfunctional families, popular culture, “lets have question your sexuality exercise, put away your crayons kids”.
Pedophillia has a HUGE relationship to prognography, would any one address that?
Change is possible, if people wouldn't be so phucking politically correct about the topic, and let some real science be the judge.
There are psychologists treating homosexual males and females (notice how I didn't say gay, these homosexuals want nothing to do with the militant political gay movement, they know that their wiring is crossed, and are seeking help.) Not all patients get treated of course, but there have been many successful treatments that should not be ignored.
Too bad in Kanada a doctor would probably get shot at, or worse, taken to some HRC "hearing", which is hardly a hearing, they don't "hear" anything; they already have their minds made up on most of the maters. Professional $hit disturbers.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (2:51 pm)
No idea why it keep reposting my first post, sorry about that. I will try to delete my cookies, maybe that has something to do with it.
-John
posted by: Brian Finch (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (3:51 pm)
Maybe those who have no experience with the subject matter, that being heterosexual should refrain from commenting on something upon which they have no first-hand knowledge and life experience. Babylonian, you don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Million's of gay men are the world are quite happy with their lives, well except those who are killed, beaten up, commit suicide by ignorance professed such as those above. And many people live a apolitical life. Who do you know? Who are your gay friends, or family members. Oh that would most likely be none. It's too bad folks like you just can't keep your trap shut and let people be.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (5:29 pm)
Brian, for goodness sake, don't let your emotions decided the science. It's people like you that prevent those who don't want the "gay" life from getting helped professionaly.
I never once said they should be beaten, shunned, harrassed, ostracized, etc. I am simply talking about the psychological conditions.
I don't need your red herrings. Stay on topic.
posted by: koby (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (6:46 pm)
"Brian, for goodness sake, don't let your emotions decided the science."
Heed your own advice Babylonian. There is reason that chemical castration is pushed on sex offenders. It is the only thing that has proven to either reduce sexual drive or change it.
Gay therpy is univerasally regarded as a joke. It ranks up there with Creation Science.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (7:28 pm)
"Gay therpy is univerasally regarded as a joke. It ranks up there with Creation Science."
By who......the APA and their activists? This is hillarious, no one can have a serious discussion of homosexuality with out some gay fundamentalists kicking and screaming.
Koby, put your activism aside and let us reason. Do you in your right mind think that Dr. Charles Silverstein was an unbaised observer in ruling out homosexulaity as not a disorder? I do want to remind you that he was the author of "The joys of gay sex".
Put your passion, emotions, "city of Toronto" rhetoric aside, and just answer my question please.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (7:31 pm)
For the record, I have gay friends, I also have a cousin who may be gay, there is an established fatherly disconect, and overtly intrusive mother. I love him regardless, also my gay friends.
By the way that "creation science" comment was an unecessary cheap shot, stay on topic if you can.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (8:32 pm)
For the record, I have gay friends, I also have a cousin who may be gay, there is an established fatherly disconect, and overtly intrusive mother. I love him regardless, also my gay friends.
By the way that "creation science" comment was an unecessary cheap shot, stay on topic if you can.
posted by: Babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (9:39 pm)
For the record, I have gay friends, I also have a cousin who may be gay, there is an established fatherly disconect, and overtly intrusive mother. I love him regardless, also my gay friends.
By the way that "creation science" comment was an unecessary cheap shot, stay on topic if you can.
posted by: babylonian (reply)
post date: 07.02.08 (9:40 pm)
sorry, this thing is flooding again. I think if I leave the page open, it somehow "refreshes" and posts again.
apologies to the webmaster.
posted by: koby (reply)
post date: 07.03.08 (3:21 am)
No the creation science comparison is apt. As with Global warming deniers and creationists, the ex gay crowd claims uses the fact that they are rejected by virtually everyone in academia as proof of their own moral superiority and their willingness to stand up for truth in the face of as vast conscriacy that involves a complicit majority and a powerful few dedicated to keeping the truth from flowing out to the public. The truth is more straight forward. The reason their theories are universally panned is that they simply do not hold water or worse in the case of Paul Cameron.
The ability to reorient pedophiles would be significant achievement and would be lauded by virtually everyone, including, I dare say, some pedophiles. Yet there has been no progress has been made on that front. Given the failure on this front it is amazing that anyone would seriously believe that attempts to turn around a person’s sexual orientation would stand much of change. Homosexuality seems to have genetic component. I have not seen anything pedophilia and genetic.
As for rantings on Silverton, the implication but far him things would be different is ridiculous. The writing was on the wall. If not Silverton, it would have been someone else. Your dismissal of APA and all those PhDs is equally comical.
posted by: j9ttt9jtm8 (reply)
post date: 07.15.08 (9:16 am)
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